--- Log opened Mon Apr 01 00:00:20 2013
18:51 < conseo> what do you think about http://www.iopsociety.org/ ? sounds like they are interested in the same practices as we are
19:04 < mcallan> our practices can also be used by capitalists (or sexists, racists, authoritarians, etc), but theirs cannot.  so there is a difference
19:06 < mcallan> i think we are concerned more with social (political, economic, etc) forms, not particular contents
19:06 < mcallan> we want participants to decide on the contents themselves
19:09 < mcallan> they might be able to use our practices as a whole, but we cannot use theirs.  not inclusive enough
19:13 < mcallan> (it's kind of like the pirates, being concerned with political issues, like net neutrality.  they pretend at times to be above politics, but they are not)
19:14 < mcallan> (anyway, just my quick thoughts)
19:14 < conseo> i don't think so. it is only a claim that democratic practices are neutral to their end. practices that require suppression always try to avoid democracy towards those suppressed
19:15 < mcallan> we are open to a person who disagrees with democracy
19:15 < mcallan> we are open to everyone
19:16 < conseo> it is the strength of the process if it can carry along conflicts, but it is not agnostic versus its content
19:16 < conseo> but i agree that the practices can be used beyond their ends
19:16 < conseo> well form has to fit function, it cannot create function, so yes and no :-) if u try to generalize too much u will lose the form as well and it will be formed after personal experiences and prejudices rather than social practice
19:16 < conseo> i think we see that pretty often in our field
19:16 < conseo> to paraphrase you: what is the problem u are trying to solve? if u can't relate to deep social problems and show how the form helps their historical struggle, u start cherry-picking problems
19:16 < conseo> like anonymity or some ridiculously over-stretched and hence shallow form of equality the process has to fulfill
19:16 < conseo> but never mind, i can talk to them anyway. i have found them through open-source ecology and they have practice on the ground
19:16 < conseo> i could start compiling a list as you did for potential social movements/cooperatives, first
19:16 < conseo> but everyday politics is fake politics, most people are rightfully bored. we need some seriously active people. people not in parties, but rather in movements who have to reach out to people imo
19:17 < mcallan> conseo: (there is a big lag in the network)
19:17 < conseo> hmm, ok
19:17 < mcallan> maybe ok now
19:18 < conseo> i don't say we should become their problem. the technology always has to be more open than any organisation using it
19:18 < conseo> their platform
19:18 < conseo> sry
19:19 < mcallan> right, ok
19:19 < conseo> but we need to have a look at movements which care about democracy and do so in a changing way. some transparency and tolerance talk won't need our tools
19:20 < conseo> how do you plan to select the right practitioners?
19:21 < conseo> (i know what u will respond now, not at all...)
19:21 < mcallan> i was only responding to votorola practice == iops practice...
19:21 < conseo> ok
19:22 < mcallan> currently the practice leaders will have to select themselves...
19:23 < mcallan> we have no intake process, so anyone with the energy/initiative to make it through is probably going stick with it...
19:23 < mcallan> self selected
19:23 < conseo> sure, but this might have an effect on the design of the tools
19:23 < mcallan> maybe manager can improve on that process.  i can't...
19:24 < mcallan> no time.  must do technology work
19:24 < conseo> ok
19:37 < mcallan> i will post design sketch tonight.  almost done
19:57 < conseo> cool
20:28 < conseo> http://bradfrost.github.com/this-is-responsive/index.html
20:32 < mcallan> makes me go cross-eyed  ( o) (o )
20:34 < conseo> the links are pretty good. got them from here: http://hackdesign.org/lesson/3/
20:36 < conseo> Luke Wroblewski has a great post on the “Mobile First” methodology. In a nutshell, focusing on mobile first puts your mind in the right place. It forces you to focus on and prioritize the most important features and content in your application. It also extends your abilities by offering new tools and services that are not available in a traditional desktop environment. By approaching your project with the mobile
20:36 < conseo> -first mentality, you will start off on the right foot."
20:37 < conseo> http://uxdesign.smashingmagazine.com/2011/10/06/not-your-parents-mobile-phone-ux-design-guidelines-smartphones/
20:43 < mcallan> as devil's advocate, could same the same about desktop first
20:43 < mcallan> (say the same)
20:44 < mcallan> 'new tools' available on desktop include drafting media
20:48 < conseo> the problem is reach, last year smartphones and tablets out-sold pcs and you can't consume non-mobile content on mobiles easily, while having a mobile version first easily allows to reallocate the space for useful information
20:50 < conseo> (to flip to the devil's advocate economical persuasion :-P)
20:51 < mcallan> except you can't do drafting on a smartphone.  so it's a non-starter,,,
20:52 < conseo> u can. blackberries are used for a lot of business communication for instance
20:52 < mcallan> mobile comes in when mobile is needed.  maybe by then, drafting is possible too...
20:52 < conseo> do you have a smartphone?
20:52 < mcallan> if not, mobile is not for *all* of practice...
20:53 < mcallan> (no) and meantime we can develop all of practice
20:54 < conseo> no, i don't propose forcing mobile. but it is a saner default than vice versa. i am also not saying u should target it now, but it is a trend which needs to be taken serious and needs some thinking and understanding of the usage imho
20:54 < conseo> at least i think i should get a smart-phone (i don't feel like it though)
20:57 < conseo> it is not mobile in a simple accidental trend, it is rather the expansion of the web in all kinds of usage contexts.
20:58 < conseo> for instance our tools are supposed to be embedded in discussion media and on many potential sites
20:59 < conseo> these sites may very well be consumed on mobile
21:01 < mcallan> conseo: well, i'm reasonably confident about the practice.  if u feel something in it is incompatible with mobiles, and non-essential to the practice, let me know...
21:02 < mcallan> or if there's something in mobiles (and only mobiles) that's essential to practice, let me know
21:02 < conseo> no, except that tracks don't work on touch devices as expected, because there is no mouse and hence no mouse-over
21:03 < conseo> also the small elements are difficult to "click"
21:04 < conseo> i am just arguing with you, i don't suppose it to be high priority. but it was still important enough for me to bring it up
21:04 < conseo> if u r busy, just say so
21:05 < mcallan> i'm drafting the design sketch you asked for (said so already)
21:05 < mcallan> it's ok...
21:06 < mcallan> but we cannot afford to carry mobile, yet.  we don't have a practice.
21:06 < conseo> sure
21:07 < mcallan> priority is to develop a bare bones practice.  then we can get developers
21:07 < conseo> +1
21:09 < mcallan> drafters will work on desktop or tablet, not smartphone.  we can only afford to tool one platform, so we must tool desktop...
21:10 < mcallan> but it's a drag about no mouse-over on tablet.  i never thought of that
21:11 < conseo> me neither, i rather considered it a problem of size and layout
21:13 < mcallan> it doesn't matter.  it's impossible w/ 1 full time coder to cover all these platforms, and do everything else that needs doing...
21:13 < mcallan> desktop is *the* correct sol'n at the moment
21:14 < conseo> i had to try it out and then read about it a bit, since the designers' of the company i did my internship with pointed me to this hackdesign.org series (and tufte + some touch literature)
21:15 < conseo> yes, i am rather talking to u as a ux-designer, not directly about votorola
21:16 < conseo> (which i am not, but i understand it is important how information is exposed and explorable)
21:19 < conseo> tufte was really helpful back then. thx for that!
21:22 < mcallan> ur welcome.  the basics are always the same.  get them right, and it applies for all time...
21:22 < mcallan> or at least a long time :-)
21:23 < mcallan> we're inventing the future.  whatever gets tech-junkies excited seems boring by comparison
21:26 < conseo> i know, i am not proposing designing stuff. content should determine what makes sense, if u need a lot of presentational effort u probably lack consistent or substantial content
21:27 < conseo> (without dragging any further time through discussion, this is also the reason why i care about lisp, it is not at all trendy...)
21:29 < conseo> (it is the proper building "material" for computation and will be so forever, but now *pssst* ;-) )
21:29 < mcallan> grrr ;-)
21:30 < conseo> LOL
21:31 < conseo> do you know that i like talking to you? (and i hate stealing time from you)
21:31 < conseo> u are a reasonable designer and a good opponent in discussion
21:37 < mcallan> ta da!  sketch posted
21:39 < mcallan> thx c, i like talking to you too, esp. really talking.  irc strains me at times...
21:39 < mcallan> maybe because the irc monitor is 90 degrees right...
21:39 < mcallan> and it crooks my neck :-p
21:41 < mcallan> conseo: i'm happy, we're moving forward again :-)
21:43 < mcallan> i must sign off, time for late supper...
21:43 < mcallan> and time to read some more fallada
21:44 < mcallan> he's brilliant.  i'm now reading wolf among wolves...
21:44 < mcallan> he reminds me of shakespeare, more than any other modern writer
21:49 < mcallan> n8 c
21:52 < conseo> reads well. n8 m
21:52 < conseo> (ur mail)
21:53 < conseo> enjoy your your supper and literature!
22:15 < mcallan> can't stop thinking about that hover problem...
22:17 < mcallan> conseo: don't worry, if worse comes to worse, we can create a pointer or cursor for mobile, where the user can drag it around to inspect the hover content...
22:17 < mcallan> should work
22:18 < mcallan> now i'm really gone
22:18 < mcallan> n8 c
22:19 < conseo> n8
--- Log closed Tue Apr 02 00:00:38 2013