--- Log opened Sun Nov 20 00:00:50 2011
09:34 < conseo> mcallan_: but what does that mean? it doesn't mean you go to a public assembly, but you rather want to stop alienation where it happens and not in a postponed political process to stabilize society
09:35 < conseo> from reading the contradictory signs of ows or occupy protesters as well as the wide-ranging concepts and ideas in the forums, which all try to fix the current system with some historic repetition (e.g. more regulation, higher wages, all kind of measurements which have caused the crisises before this one (1930, 1970s..)
09:36 < conseo> until now occupy is very contradictory and a collection of historically marginalized leftist groups, which are more or less from the democratic middle-classe/student/educated environment, not working class people
09:37 < conseo> they cooperate in some protests, but this is a big difference still
09:37 < conseo> i simply don't see how that contradictory opinions can easily come together in a democratic process, without quickly losing interest due to fragmentation
09:37 < conseo> and i have doubts that any tool/platform can overcome that
09:38 < conseo> after all even the assemblies haven't lead to massive collective actions, but rather to endless discussions
09:39 < conseo> i don't say that this is bad, it might be necessary and it is a place to talk about the problems, but it might not be the best place to try consent forming, esp. not if the only possible outcome of the protest can be some global capital regulation...
09:40 < conseo> this is such an unrealistical goal, that even though i try to imagine a stage of progress, i think they lack the instruments to deal with the crisis. have a look at the 1970s stagflation and how deregulation reestablished capital investment
09:40 < conseo> we have a similiar problem now, endless money (inflation), but no investment happening... more regulation and higher wages have been the problem in the 1970s, so they cannot be the solution now
09:44 < conseo> no matter how you view it, just think about what you want to achieve and how it worked out that far. although there are thousands of people around the forums you (and me) move in occupy, nobody has really come up with a technological concept accepted even by a small group of activists
09:45 < conseo> maybe the goal seems close, but in fact democracy lacks democratical reproduction to start with, something which automatically pulls all means into the democratic sphere during reproduction
10:19 < conseo> this is why i wanted to show you the cooperatives movement in argentina. they have more than 15000 workers working in occupied factories and they are growing
10:20 < conseo> i don't say that this is it, but they have said it loud and clearly, that they don't care for the official political process, because it represents their bosses
10:21 < conseo> they only use it if they really have to, but in general they say that their growing existence is the force pushing them forward, not political process
19:11 < conseo> mcallan_: a trust-network browser as a mapper in xf would be an awesome tool. it would even make sense to see the communication feed and trackstacks to judge if you want to trust a person.
19:15 < conseo> mcallan_: mail sent to v list about trackstack design, i need your feedback.
--- Log closed Mon Nov 21 00:00:06 2011