--- Log opened Thu Nov 17 00:00:03 2011
02:25 < mcallan> oh my, what is going on here?  http://www.facebook.com/groups/upgradedemocracy/doc/167918099964799/
02:56 < mcallan> and i finally made contact with someone in toronto.  man, i have to get me a smartphone or something, so i can get out of this chair. http://zelea.com/var/cache/irc/occupytoronto/11-11/17
04:01 < mcallan> UpgradeDemocracy (ud) won something at a conference hosted by douglas rushkoff, a media theorist: http://groups.google.com/group/contactsummit/browse_thread/thread/227a5c443c2da964#
04:12 < mcallan> their victory manifesto, on winning first prize: http://groups.google.com/group/contactsummit/browse_thread/thread/98088894ec1b39c1#
04:20 < mcallan> prizes were only 10K, but i think there's more to it. something like venture captital maybe.  there were vc's at the event, and a formal meetup was part of it
04:27 < mcallan> on one hand i want to work with them (where were they 4 years ago?), on other hand i want to beat them (they are deliberately refusing to cooperate, and daring other projects to "steal our ideas")
04:33 < mcallan> private votes.  boring as can be.  they are dead in the water with that
04:37 < mcallan> huge number of design flaws.  they did not research existing projects, it appears
04:38 < mcallan> dakota claims "We're all working for free. There will not be money to be made, ..."  so maybe no vc's after all
04:41 < mcallan> they intend to code it in a 1 week hack-a-thon, with 20 developers
04:43 < mcallan> right, i guess that's just to attract attention.  they must know such hack-a-projects have a high failure rate.  though maybe they come out of it with some committed coders
04:47 < mcallan> they have a "generous grant" to pay for that
05:19 < mcallan> "Software to enable full-fledged Dynamic Democracy (which includes proxy voting as well as system for writing and deliberating on legislation) does not yet exist..." http://www.facebook.com/groups/upgradedemocracy/docs/#!/groups/upgradedemocracy/doc/167907396632536/
05:34 < conseo> hmm, no facebook yet
05:35 < conseo> mcallan: yes smartphones are cool. have a look at the new samsung nexus, it seems to be awesome (but also a bit expensive). one can also get a famous older android phone as well, so you can upgrade the newest android version from e.g. cyanogenmod.com yourself
05:37 < conseo> mcallan: they are liars obviously, not a good start in consensus making
05:38 < conseo> people are so locked in proprietary thinking, it is freaking me out that they don't see the antagonism
05:38 < mcallan> well, they may just be in a hurry.  micah daigle is basically an impresario, i guess
05:38 < conseo> i have talked to thomasvonderelbe and no matter what comes out of the current efforts, we need the tools ourselves, because we want to start a cooperative
05:38 < conseo> ok
05:39 < mcallan> keenan dakota is an actual communist (didn't know they existed in us): http://rt.com/usa/news/us-american-communist-community/
05:39 < conseo> with vote mirroring we can also go back to coding and take them over then... it is a handsome concept
05:40 < conseo> mcallan: yeah, a lot of people call themselves communists, esp. in times of crisis. i am careful to use that term unless it is necessary to understand my argument or situation
05:40 < conseo> the term is not really defined anyway
05:41 < mcallan> he lives on a commune, tho
05:42 < conseo> sure it is cool. i just want to mention that the term communist is fuzzy
05:42 < conseo> looks cool
05:43 < conseo> they lack technology though and they still need sanctions, which is not communist really
05:44 < conseo> mcallan: can i help you to watch the movie somehow? i can send it to you burned on dvd :-p
05:44 < mcallan> lol
05:45 < mcallan> i don't want u to put too much time into something i can only put 15 min a day into...
05:46 < mcallan> at least till i catch up on all that's happening
05:48 < mcallan> Micah is very smart, that's clear.  others around him are, too
05:49 < conseo> hmm, i have to login to see any of the posted information, both on facebook and on google. very open projects...
05:50 < conseo> mcallan: why do you think so? can you post that information to a pad or sth.?
05:50 < mcallan> what info c?
05:55 < mcallan> many highly educated people.  reminds me of the liquid democracy e.V., except larger and more open
05:56 < mcallan> they know almost nothing about consensus making tho, it's like they just got the idea 2 months ago, and think nobody else ever thought of it... because ofc they are all busy with their careers etc
05:57 < mcallan> it's like they're the board members...
05:57 < mcallan> they don't have to actually *know* anything about the business
06:00 < mcallan> lol, check out this one: http://occupyassembly.org/
06:04 < mcallan> mockup or prototype: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=935616614784&set=o.167862606637015&type=1&ref=nf
06:05 < mcallan> (clearly the hack-a-thon is not all of it)
06:09 < mcallan> no, it's only a "mockup" he says
06:15 < conseo> these projects tend to apply a web 2.0 like view on a rough idea of voting... i am not sure if we get heard at all
06:15 < conseo> but you do the right thing with occupy
06:15 < conseo> if sth. will come out of it, i think it will happen in the next month, but they seem to be so diverse, I guess they will defeat themselves that way with all the voting projects
06:16 < conseo> yet, they still need it
06:17 < conseo> it is interesting that no new concept has yet come out from these projects right?
06:17 < conseo> and yet they all stick to their projects without even having a look at metagovernment projects and us...
06:18 < mcallan> well, if you mean ud...
06:18 < mcallan> i think micah wants to be the creator
06:20 < mcallan> but that's true for all the projects
06:20 < mcallan> and true, they are not strong on novel ideas.  we have many inventions...
06:20 < mcallan> they have few
06:21 < mcallan> all of them, so far as i know (you're right)
06:22 < mcallan> mind u, most entrepreneurs (not sure about impresarios) are not really keen on ideas...
06:23 < mcallan> they prefer that it all be about *execution*
06:23 < mcallan> (ideas can be bought, or whatever)
06:24 < conseo> sad, but true here
06:25 < conseo> mcallan: but whom to buy from cooperation?
06:25 < conseo> sad, that no single new developer has come out of it yet.
06:26 < mcallan> no other projects care about coop, just us so far
06:26 < mcallan> give it time, tho
06:26 < mcallan> i have made (tho very few) contacts, and maybe more soon
06:27 < mcallan> the repo for layervote is just a mockup https://github.com/flipzagging/layervote-site
06:28 < conseo> tzzz
06:29 < conseo> are they all opensource?
06:29 < mcallan> i think so. here's the actual code: https://github.com/flipzagging/luna
06:30 < conseo> i meant the prev. ones
06:30 < mcallan> which ones, of what?
06:30 < conseo> because if they don't, then it isn't even worth considering
06:31 < conseo> the ones on facebook and google groups you mentioned before
06:33 < mcallan> that's all ud (UpgradeDemocracy)
06:33 < conseo> ok, do they have a repo?
06:34 < mcallan> yes, repo url is above (luna).  it claims to be consortium of projects, but it's not really...
06:35 < mcallan> the aim is to code a single facility
06:36 < mcallan> the code is nothing by the looks of it, maybe just a semi-functional visualization, coded in a few weeks.  last commit oct 20
06:37 < mcallan> so yeah, it's vapourware.  or it's all top secret
06:38 < mcallan> they are like the exact opposite of us.  pure hype, and nothing of substance.  anti-votorola...
06:39 < mcallan> if we touch them, there will be explosion
06:39 < mcallan> but wow, they are good at hype.  if they had just a little more money...
06:40 < mcallan> well, maybe they are saving some, or gathering their resources...
06:41 < mcallan> they are not very noisy, i think they work behind scenes
06:41 < mcallan> and rushkoff is like their patron saint, i guess.
06:41 < mcallan> he can steer all kind of new "board members" in their direction
06:42 < mcallan> so they might pull it off
06:44 < mcallan> but not without lots of money, and why would anyone give lots?  makes no sense, unless one of them is already wealthy, and is doing it for the fame, or whatever
06:45 < mcallan> these kind of things do not attract the best developers, i don't think
06:46 < mcallan> too little freedom for them
06:48 < mcallan> so the two software components are (as of oct 26): LayerVote: Proxy-voting prototype in development (see early mockup attached).
06:48 < mcallan> and "Swayy: Collaborative deliberation tool... first step of building a virtual legislative system. Think wiki with a tree-like structure for vision, proposals, sub-proposals, and arguments. Also similar to GitHub with forking mechanisms. In concept stage."
06:49 < mcallan> vapourware, they are making it up as they go along
06:51 < mcallan> i wonder what he will say, at this: http://www.extremefuturistfest.info/speakers.html
06:53 < mcallan> (on second thought, maybe that's the perfect place to announce vapourware)
06:58 < mcallan> conseo: well, bottom line is it'll be hard to talk to these guys, because they have no software.  maybe they have plans, but it's doubtful.  in any case, the plans are not public
07:02 < mcallan> (sorry tho, to make so much noise about this)
07:08 < mcallan> cu c, i'm off till tonight
07:11 < conseo> mcallan: sry, was at breakfast and talking to my brother
07:11 < conseo> mcallan: good night
07:18 < conseo> mcallan: no, it is cool of you to keep me updated, i am thankful for it
07:21 < conseo> looks like the perfect place for vapourware. transhuman... as if consent making wouldn't be difficult enough.
07:23 < conseo> the more i read about this the more i love crossforum and our concepts. they tell me little about the problems of consent making, but everybody already has his/her own solutions.
07:23 < conseo> to formulate it in your terms (which are pretty good imo)
07:45 < conseo> they remind of the technocratic zeitgeist movement. they seem to be popular atm. because they have simple technical answers without necessary social changes, but i think they are illusionary and their technocratic dream is the false projection of our highly instrumentalized society
07:47 < conseo> capital is antagonistic, you cannot stop that without abolishing it... i know you tend to see that more relaxed, but i know we need a different type of economy and it needs to be consent based to succeed.
17:17 < mcallan> conseo: capital may come into play with ud.  micah's plan may be to hype it, and then sell it to facebook or some other media giant with lots of money
17:18 < mcallan> i have nothing against capital myself (call me neutral), but i don't want to see a monopoly fueled by capital (or anything else) in this field
20:10 < conseo> ok
--- Log closed Fri Nov 18 00:00:19 2011