--- Log opened Sat Oct 08 00:00:17 2011
08:43 < conseo> mcallan: i don't know one major site which has light/dark colour sheme. my sister said she has problems reading the text on the black.
08:43 < conseo> don't know since i had a black theme for my desktop for some time as well
08:43 < conseo> so i can deal with it, have switched back, since there are too many issues with 3rd party programs like Firefox
10:00 < conseo> mcallan: hurry up, people get ready: http://www.avaaz.org/en/the_world_vs_wall_st/?tta :-)
11:30 < conseo> they do sth. like crossforum/vote mirroring already (although they only list the forums, they don't really mirror)
19:25 < mcallan> conseo: what screen did your sis have trouble with? do you have url?
19:29 < mcallan> there's another connect eco-poli.  when eco is bad, folks, for better or worse, are more open to new poli ideas.
20:15 < conseo> yes, what did you read about that?
20:43 < mcallan> just newspaper articles and list posts about various protests, like kulish's: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/28/world/as-scorn-for-vote-grows-protests-surge-around-globe.html
20:45 < mcallan> or: http://lists.thataway.org/scripts/wa-THATAWAY.exe?A0=NCDD-DISCUSSION
20:53 < mcallan> this just in, to appear in tomorrow's paper: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/09/nyregion/wall-street-protest-spurs-online-conversation.html
20:55 < mcallan> in broad outlines (unfolding over next decade) we might be in a revolution... or we might not
20:58 < mcallan> it would give people hope, if they thought so
21:03 < conseo> :-)
21:03 < conseo> mcallan: http://whiletaker.homeip.net/wsprotest.mp4
21:05 < mcallan> (unfort, no mp player here)
21:06 < mcallan> "The second edition of The Occupied Wall Street Journal, a four-page broadsheet, was published on Saturday." (ibid)
21:06 < mcallan> so it all began over 300 years ago
21:06 < mcallan> folks don't realize how much this kind of thing depends on tech, then as now
21:08 < mcallan> so another thing to read (tying tech, econo, politics) is Habermas's '62 work: structural transformation
21:13 < mcallan> "But the biggest difference a decade makes is that in 1999, we were taking on capitalism at the peak of a frenzied economic boom. Unemployment was low, stock portfolios were bulging. The media was drunk on easy money. Back then it was all about start-ups, not shutdowns."  http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/10/07-0
21:17 < conseo> what began 300 years ago?
21:17 < mcallan> a revolution
21:17 < conseo> do you have any video player/recent firefox?
21:17 < conseo> ok
21:18 < mcallan> on the windoze box
21:18 < conseo> ok, this is pretty difficult with you
21:19 < conseo> why did it start 300 years ago?
21:20 < mcallan> because of tech partly, maybe mostly (print press, letter post) + wider literacy
21:21 < mcallan> because of econo, people with some time and a little money, and no political power whatsoever
21:22 < mcallan> because there was much to hope for, i guess
21:25 < mcallan> see (thomas says i exaggerate, true) they discovered the internet back then
21:25 < mcallan> then they discovered how to use it
21:26 < mcallan> we're just catching up to them, now
21:31 < conseo> sounds wild
21:31 < conseo> :-D
21:35 < mcallan> i like it because it's a firm base to stand on, so to speak.  not get too carried away by excitement of current events
21:44 < conseo> hopefully, because they need the tools imo, they just don't know yet:
21:45 < conseo> portugese protester i talked to: 'The activists I know of IRL are not much keen on the online side, and there isn't really a need for what your tools are made for, in this moment. We're still very grassroots, very little group. We manage things very simply, either by email or IRL. That's why I mentioned the national level. It'd be cool to make all of the tiny groups connect, and I mean really connect. As of now we
21:45 < conseo>  only know of each other's camps and we have mails and such but it's on that level, nothing like having a conjoined proposition of a minimum of consensus. They also have different "rules", too, and topics of choice. In my city we focus more on democracy, in Lisbon, however, they focus more in the economic crisis, the IMF, etc.'
21:47 < conseo> i have updated 2g.xht and 2g.m1.xht. what do you think about the timeline visualization?
21:47 < conseo> people's opinion seems to differ
21:48 < conseo> thomas thinks it isn't necessary
21:48 < mcallan> re portuguese fellow: yes, and i feel it's wrong to approach activists with tools and ask for their help
21:48 < conseo> right
21:49 < conseo> but at least i wanted to hear their thoughts about it, because we target these people
21:49 < mcallan> re mocks: you posted to v, i guess.  i'm working my way to that list... i might not be able to reply today, but 2morrow
21:49 < conseo> ok
22:28 < conseo> if i am looking out there i wonder too if this is the best time for theory... personally i would suspend it till the time when the protest fail
22:28 < conseo> fails
22:29 < conseo> the situation is serious, the euro could crash soon and a world recession will bring enormous political activity
22:29 < conseo> and more and more protests, esp. when speculators flee in food and oil commodities, prices skyrocket like at the beginning of 2011
22:30 < conseo> the problems will get tougher soon
22:31 < conseo> during the expansion of the movement the tools might not be necessary as people are motivated on their own individually to join the movement, but to keep them satisfied their opinion has to be heard in times of stagnation or repression as well
22:33 < mcallan> conseo: i hear you, but my personal work ethic is: 1) design broken? stop coding and work on design 2) theory broken?  stop designing and work on theory
22:34 < mcallan> it won't take long
22:34 < conseo> ok
22:35 < conseo> mcallan: i am also for avatars now. thomas has also said that he finds it only fair when people who contribute are shown
22:35 < mcallan> i'm just reading now
22:35 < conseo> ok
22:36 < conseo> sry
22:36 < mcallan> s'ok :-)
22:37 < mcallan> ah, 2g is interesting
22:40 < conseo> ok
22:41 < mcallan> thomasvonderelbe: you suggested timeline c says, must have been offlist.  yes, you're unbeatable at graphic design.  weird for a guy who doesn't draw, but just talks, but most valuable!
22:44 < mcallan> or no you didn't.  c where are these ideas coming from, your own?  this thing is rocking, i must say
22:45 < conseo> yes, i have talked to my sister and friend as well
22:47 < mcallan> i would credit them in public, as a matter of record.  too easy to forget (so many do) and later take credit without realizing it
22:47 < conseo> ok
22:48 < mcallan> wow, i don't need to reply today (and need time to think anyhow), but this is quite impressive to see.  good work!
22:49 < conseo> great you like it
22:49 < conseo> :-D
22:49 < conseo> this will be the most complicated gui stuff i have ever done.
22:50 < conseo> i have quite some respect for this task
22:50 < conseo> it also asks some questions about how to model history
22:50 < conseo> (in shifts, increases/decreases)
22:51 < conseo> i meant the coding not the mockup
22:51 < mcallan> it's best not to worry much about impl, reach for the ideal.  stay as far away from code as possible, and just go with ideas
22:52 < conseo> sure, this is what i did
22:52 < conseo> after all the right ui will save enormous time for all the users, the additional time to implement it proper is paid off very quickly
22:53 < mcallan> it shows you did, yes
22:54 < mcallan> the big time spent in coding is when you throw the code away, because the design was wrong
22:54 < conseo> i just recognized that the first trackstack is a linear representation of the circle in votespace except for the poll itself
22:54 < conseo> yes i learn this from you. mockups are very important
22:55 < mcallan> good
22:56 < mcallan> i mean good what you recognized...
22:56 < conseo> :-D
22:56 < mcallan> so i can concentrate on my own stuff, cause you have this well in hand.  again, good work! :-)
22:57 < conseo> thx ':-)
22:57 < conseo> next is coding the ui if there are no more objections from the list?
22:58 < conseo> i mentioned history, because the counting and track of resource changes is not yet clear to me. we might need some work to model that then...
22:58 < mcallan> nak, don't rush it.  impossible to spend too much time on design, mistakes are always the other way around
22:58 < conseo> ok
22:59 < mcallan> believe me, rush to code is the killer.  design first, then take a well deserved break, because *anyone* can code
22:59 < conseo> seems right. it is hard to find people who can do ui design
23:00 < mcallan> technology is what's in our heads
23:00 < mcallan> but nuff, i must get back to work... for now
23:01 < conseo> kk
23:06 < conseo> mcallan: have you seen 2g.m1.xht as well?
23:22 < mcallan> uhuh, tactiles :-)
23:23 < mcallan> (don't forget, credit)
23:25 < conseo> :-)
23:25 < conseo> ok, you mean for everybody involved on the list
23:25 < conseo> _
23:25 < conseo> ?
23:26 < mcallan> if any idea came out conversation, credit people involved.  if idea came from one person, credit that person
23:27 < mcallan> esp. if you want to remain friends with them ;-)
23:28 < mcallan> like your sister, and your friend
23:29 < mcallan> away for lunch, cu soon
--- Log closed Sun Oct 09 00:00:33 2011