--- Log opened Tue Oct 04 00:00:14 2011
10:53 < conseo> thomasvonderelbe: when are your online times?
11:02 < conseo> pietro has written a book about e-governance: https://www.createspace.com/3688685
14:53 < conseo> mcallan: where should i put the development plan?
14:54 < conseo> G/p/dev ?
16:58 < conseo_web> anybody here?
17:54 < mcallan> conseo_web: i'm here, just arrived
17:57 < conseo_web> mcallan: great
17:58 < conseo_web> i am at a hackspace in mannheim
17:58 < conseo_web> haven't got vpn working yet
18:01 < conseo_web> mcallan: where should i put the development plan?
18:02 < mcallan> see my answer to ed: http://metagovernment.org/pipermail/start_metagovernment.org/2011-September/004300.html
18:03 < mcallan> i would start with discussion.  there is nothing to draft till there is *some* level of agreement/interest
18:04 < conseo_web> right, but this is a charta. i want to draft our development efforts to allow people contribute and vote on our stuff
18:04 < conseo_web> that was the june idea of yours we talked about yesterday, right?
18:05 < mcallan> those were plans on getting alpha users, weren't they?
18:06 < conseo_web> we already have discussed the development plan and we do follow it more or less all the time
18:06 < mcallan> guepo?
18:06 < conseo_web> no, not only alpha users, but rather to eat our own dogfood.
18:07 < conseo_web> for you it is guepo, for me it might be the resource stuff and then we have to find a common baseline
18:07 < mcallan> exactly, two *different* plans
18:07 < mcallan> which you gonna draft?
18:08 < conseo_web> i thought that was the plan in your post from june (which i can't access atm.)
18:08 < mcallan> you have web?
18:09 < mcallan> http://mail.zelea.com/list/votorola/2011-June/000993.html
18:12 < conseo_web> yep
18:13 < mcallan> you want to draft one of the plans, maybe A
18:13 < conseo_web> i will put my labour force behind my plan (as you will likely) and try to convince others to contribute. maybe we can also get the differences between us three in a manageable form
18:13 < conseo_web> maybe yes
18:13 < conseo_web> and thomas has his own ideas as well
18:14 < mcallan> and i have mine
18:14 < conseo_web> i guess
18:14 < conseo_web> right
18:14 < mcallan> we would have to reach agreement
18:14 < conseo_web> i was just asking about where to create the poll
18:14 < mcallan> what poll, for plan A?
18:14 < mcallan> you see there are three plans
18:14 < mcallan> three polls
18:15 < mcallan> but no point in creating a poll, if you are only voter
18:15 < conseo_web> "Each plan is formalized in a poll." Why?
18:16 < conseo_web> why not one development poll?
18:16 < mcallan> same reason as a law, policy draft, or election is formalized in poll.  we cannot have one poll for all the millions of issues in the world
18:17 < mcallan> 3 plans = 3 different issues
18:17 < mcallan> all *3* could execute in parallel
18:17 < conseo_web> hmm, ok
18:17 < conseo_web> have to think...
18:17 < mcallan> bad design to tie them together
18:17 < conseo_web> i'll go home soon
18:18 < mcallan> look again at june post
18:18 < conseo_web> yep
18:18 < mcallan> see Ed is drafting (and i guess voting) for both plan A and B?
18:18 < conseo_web> i need to eat sth. my blood sugar hits the ground
18:18 < conseo_web> but plans might be contradictory
18:19 < conseo_web> we can only develop the software in one way. several polls might allow consent on conflict
18:19 < mcallan> so it is, in the real world
18:19 < conseo_web> right, but we address this very issue. i'll reread and think aboutit
18:20 < mcallan> ok
18:20 < conseo_web> cu later
18:20 < mcallan> ok, cu
21:00 < conseo> mcallan: re
21:00 < conseo> ok
21:00 < conseo> i think different polls are sound.
21:01 < conseo> i have reread the mail and i would come up with a development poll and plan if you are ok with it
21:29 < mcallan> ok, though i still think (ref post to ed above) that you want some level of agreement before drafting anything.  myself, i prefer to begin with discussion
21:33 < mcallan> in other words, never draft a consensus doc unless people already agree to it
21:35 < mcallan> else it becomes a wall, or something that pushes people away
21:36 < mcallan> this is my experience, grey hairs to prove it #;-)
21:39 < conseo> few hairs to backup my position, hopefully i don't lose them...
21:39 < conseo> mcallan: i still have my own plan and it would be dishonest to not draft it
21:40 < conseo> i mean i want to reach consensus to work on this, but i don't need to
21:40 < mcallan> lol
21:41 < mcallan> best then to draft as user page, can always create poll later if voting is needed
21:41 < conseo> i see what you mean, it is just that i don't feel the people understand me
21:41 < mcallan> which people?
21:41 < conseo> and the list p***** me off atm., don't know why. maybe it is a general frustration, but i don't feel we work in the same direction (besides ed maybe)
21:41 < conseo> on the list
21:42 < conseo> hmmm, ok. i'll try to get a very short summary of my position. then i post to the list
21:42 < conseo> but a sentence does not cut it. i go insane when i try to express myself in one sentence
21:42 < mcallan> never expect a list to work together though, it is not a team
21:43 < conseo> yes, but we are the team and as long as we discuss the development plan i would already be happy
21:43 < mcallan> why do you go insane?
21:44 < conseo> when i have to express myself in this brevity
21:44 < mcallan> it's easy: "we should get open source eco guys using our tools"
21:44 < mcallan> something like that
21:45 < conseo> ok
21:45 < mcallan> give others a chance to speak, before clobbering them with a wall of text (which nooobody will read)
21:46 < mcallan> if you don't like matagov, post in v list
21:46 < conseo> sure, i know. i go insane with this.
21:47 < conseo> we definetly need smart users soon
21:47 < conseo> because i need somebody to talk to about ideas and theory i think
21:48 < conseo> don't know, maybe sth. else is bugging me, i feel very nervous often, although i am a pretty "cool" guy
21:49 < conseo> i will do as you said, cut it short and post to the list
21:49 < conseo> the poll itself is to be defined neutrally, so how should i create it?
21:49 < mcallan> not sure what "cool" means, but nervous means you need to go for a walk and ask "why am i nervous?"
21:50 < conseo> (i don't mean technically, but where and in what relation to your polls?)
21:50 < mcallan> c, i've been telling you a poll serves no purpose until there's something to vote on, and people to vote on it
21:51 < conseo> i do that all the time, think about my situation, the whole situation, ... it is not new, i have it since some time. the status quo doesn't comfort me very well
21:51 < mcallan> if you already know why you are nervous, then you need only confront the cause of it, and you will be ok
21:52 < conseo> ok, i back up. so you mean i have to ask about sentence in the forum first?
21:53 < mcallan> your goal is to find someone else who is interested, and find out why others are not, right?
21:53 < conseo> i don't think so, because it is probable that i fail and have to live in this world till i die. maybe i can close my eyes, but i don't want to... nervousness fits the situation rather well
21:53 < conseo> we live in very nervous times
21:54 < mcallan> angst is not good, except as an alarm signal to action
21:54 < mcallan> we should act, not just tremble
21:55 < conseo> but it is ok. my business to figure out what i want and how to achieve it... it is just that the list people seem so naive to me at times, that i feel they hold me up. again i need more patience and don't take that stuff too serious (but then i don't read what you (or others) write...)
21:55 < conseo> hmmm....
21:57 < conseo> well, it is not angst. i know i will die and i don't have a big problem with it... at least not as big as to live in this alienated situation
21:57 < mcallan> i can talk if you like, tho tomorrow would be better if possible, cause i'm running a little behind
21:58 < mcallan> i'll turn on the skype box, till you decide
21:58 < conseo> no need, i think. tomorrow is possible, if we have sth. to talk about. it is just that the people on the list still believe in this world in some form or another, while i see a different economy and society, which has nothing to do with "governance" or creating bling for the next big social network e-dem platform
21:59 < conseo> it is hard to except that you might never see it
22:03 < conseo> even this talk sounds vapid
22:04 < conseo> mcallan: you are right. i will ask the metagov and v list and if sbd. is interested to approach ose and hackspaces
22:04 < mcallan> i wd advise: take out your frustration in harmless physical activity; then think clearly what to do; and do it
22:05 < conseo> hehe
22:05 < mcallan> serious, ever see "Rebel without a cause"
22:06 < mcallan> early in the film, when he's in the police station
22:06 < mcallan> worth watching
22:06 < mcallan> (anything by nicholas ray is worth watching)
22:09 < conseo> puuh english. don't know how to express myself sry
22:10 < conseo> it is not without reason, i have reasons all day long (except i am working on stuff i really think is progressive). but that doesn't help our project. i am just wondering if better alpha users/people are somewhere
22:12 < conseo> i would like to use the tools to express myself as well, you know. i do not only want to have common positions, but also my own position and find peers to discuss it. your strategy of growing into consent is sane, but it does not fit theoretical positions
22:13 < conseo> i found that very compelling in votorola
22:14 < conseo> i think i should go to bed, i need to go to university tomorrow (which also annoys me, because i have to justify myself likely)
22:14 < conseo> mcallan: has toronto a good technical university?
22:15 < mcallan> u of t has many good programs, but waterloo (100 km away) is famous for software eng
22:17 < conseo> i can stay here for the next two years for my bachelor, but i don't think i can live with my parents much longer. and if i have to pay for a living and so on i can also have a look for master studies elsewhere
22:17 < conseo> if they pay it
22:18  * conseo is a western europe privileged stud
22:18 < conseo> this also is so unfair, but well other topic
22:24 < conseo> mcallan: thx for the talk. is it ok to mail to both lists? i will do so tomorrow afternoon or so
22:28 < mcallan> i would only mail to one list, c.  most v subscribers are on metagov
22:28 < conseo> ok
22:29 < conseo> how is your text work going?
22:29 < mcallan> stalled yesterday, hoping to restart tonight
22:30 < conseo> ok
23:06 < conseo> gn8 my friend :-)
23:16 < mcallan> n8 my friend, till 2morrow
--- Log closed Wed Oct 05 00:00:30 2011