--- Log opened Fri Sep 23 00:00:05 2011
02:56 < mcallan> conseo: last night (up half the night) i figured out the other half of the freedom argument.  it points to a problem, eh?  well, i traced the *technical* fault that causes the problem, and that in turn points to the technical solution
02:57 < conseo> mcallan: cool. i couldn't sleep very well as well
02:57 < conseo> in fact i don't know if i have slept
02:58 < conseo> once you have formulated the issue somewhere (wiki or list) i am eager to read it
03:00 < mcallan> i will post it somewhere today, and link to it from the wiki, e.g. from here: http://zelea.com/w/User_talk:Mike-ZeleaCom/Vote_mirroring_as_a_counter-monopoly_measure
03:01 < mcallan> today i will try to wrap up all these discussions.  i'm also free to talk whenever it's ok for you
03:03 < mcallan> reading list mail, now
03:05 < mcallan> oh ed, where can we get time to do more admin?
03:08 < conseo> i don't have experience with neitehr mailman admin setup nor mediawiki admin setup (besides what i have done with you so far)
03:09 < conseo> otherwise i might be able to help
03:09 < conseo> at least i have a lpi junior certificate :-p
03:09 < mcallan> ah, then you are qualified! ;-)
03:15 < mcallan> no reply in liberationtech, interesting
03:16 < mcallan> gives me excuse to post the answer to *another* list :-)
03:16 < mcallan> (crossforum extent, dude)
03:23 < conseo> hehe
03:23 < mcallan> i would put this in html: http://whiletaker.homeip.net/progress_1.svg
03:23 < conseo> your argument may sound very common unless you read the electorama posts
03:23 < conseo> ok
03:23 < mcallan> ah, really?
03:24 < conseo> well many people don't go voting, not because they are stupid, but because they don't believe in democracy anymore
03:24 < conseo> they don't feel represented no matter whom they vote
03:24 < mcallan> apparently, they never heard it before (or are still looking for sources) - but yes, i see your point
03:25 < mcallan> it formalizes with precision what most of us vaguely feel
03:25 < conseo> i'll pump some coffeine in
03:26 < mcallan> you are making coffee?
03:26 < mcallan> i will join you
03:27 < mcallan> anyway, it's the formal precision that matters.  i wish i could find a list of abstract thinkers like election-methods who *also* care about politics, or social stuff
03:28 < mcallan> conseo: back to my suggestion, put it in black background xht, like here: http://zelea.com/project/votorola/a/xf/vote/_/3.xht
03:28 < mcallan> it's very difficult to see your images in the glare
03:30 < conseo> well, we have an espresso machine, which automatically mills the coffee (at least for my consumation that makes some sense... )
03:30 < conseo> and the coffee of my parents really qualifies rather as bitter-sour water than sth. with taste
03:30 < conseo> ok
03:31 < mcallan> hehe
03:31 < conseo> isn't the background black for you?
03:32 < mcallan> no, i guess depends on browser
--- Log closed Fri Sep 23 03:39:42 2011
--- Log opened Fri Sep 23 03:43:50 2011
04:03 < conseo> mcallan: isn't the background of the svg black for you?
04:04 < conseo> i will go to heidelberg now to fetch some books and get a new student id and meet a friend. i'll be back in 5 hours or so. i'll ping you when i am back
04:07 < conseo> cu
04:10 < mcallan> conseo: sorry c, my net went down
04:11 < mcallan> just when i answered you the first time (no, for me it is white)
04:11 < mcallan> cu
04:32 < mcallan> a thoughtful answer in liberationtech from peter
06:13 < mcallan> Jonas's software is http://gov.e2d.se/
06:13 < mcallan> iy
06:13 < mcallan> (sry) it's worth registering and clicking around
06:16 < mcallan> drawbacks: universal delegation (not per poll, irrational therefore); and id of leaf voters is private (boring, anti-social)
10:53 < mcallan> (more good critique in liberationtech.  for me this is the theory equivalent of the RAC, the keystone that sits atop the arch.  place it and the heavy lifting is done)
10:57 < mcallan> conseo: turns out peter happens to be working in our field, with transitive voting no less: https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=11uyedC3rAWHaNZDIP5JLcVIcbL_1oTGdOeoYSTKhdxg&pli=1
10:58 < mcallan> (well, i forget, you are subscribed)
11:10 < conseo> mcallan: no problem
11:10 < conseo> i am back, but feel wasted
11:10 < conseo> will you be around some time longer (for skype)
11:15 < conseo> hmm, game theory and government... this is still not the perspective of the voter and his/her will, but a systematic approach, which always objectivates democracy to a degree where the system becomes alienating and not a path to true emancipation imo
11:16 < conseo> easy way to find out though. ask them for collaboration, in practice you can always see how open minded people really are...
11:16 < conseo> just my 2pence from reading google docs, will have a look at it later
11:23 < conseo> yep it is an academical study in voting formulas, sorry, but i don't think it is worth the time, since it trying to solve an issue which is not really clear to anybody yet... it is far too complicated to keep it flexible and it tries to create an objectivist outside view of the voting system which is misleading when it starts to model meaning
11:24 < conseo> meaning is only relevant to the voter, the system might never formalize it, it can only do so by the will of the voter, but never mind, i'll get some rest and will be back in 2 hours or so
11:34 < mcallan> conseo: hey c
11:36 < mcallan> hope your trip went well (didn't realize heidelberg was so close)
11:37 < mcallan> not sure i'll be online when you get back, but will be tomorrow
14:51 < conseo> mcallan: hmm, my sister promised to wake me, but she only did that now
14:52 < conseo> srz
14:52 < conseo> i still feel tired
15:28 < conseo> mcallan: i study in heidelberg, btw. it is not far away (an hour per public transport)
15:38 < mcallan> conseo: only an hour, like between hamilton and toronto
15:38 < mcallan> i'm at the end of my day, trying to answer ed's post
15:41 < conseo> ok
15:42 < conseo> i hope i can sleep regularly tonight and then we can discuss the ac-model tomorrow
15:48 < conseo> mcallan: by car its ~20 mins (~20 km)
15:49 < conseo> if you ever like to visit it, i'll show you :-D
15:49 < mcallan> (not far at all, very close) ah i wish i could travel, i wd definitely like to.  me too c (hope we can talk 2morrow), and i'll be awake in (?) 10 hours or so
15:50 < mcallan> but anytime is ok mostly
15:51 < conseo> yes, 10h+
15:51 < conseo> i'll go to sleep in the next 5 hours i hope
15:53 < conseo> i have uploaded my drafted description of ose to zelea /home/c
15:54 < conseo> if you have 5 mins, can you have a look, i will post that to their web page (and maybe try to get an equivalent article on zelea's wiki)
15:58 < conseo> just if i miss sth. or if it does not fit your mind?
15:59 < mcallan> yes, i can read it before we speak tomorrow
16:00 < conseo> ok, then leave the text document, i'll post to their wiki a finished version and send you a link here
16:00 < conseo> mcallan: until tomorrow
16:02 < mcallan> oh, i didn't understand, you need to send it to them now
16:02 < mcallan> but c, if i did see any problems, then we would have to talk - more than 5 minutes
16:03 < conseo> ok, i'll send it tomorrow
16:03 < conseo> have a good night
16:03 < mcallan> if you can wait, yes, that's best
16:03 < mcallan> you too, cu tomorrow
16:03 < conseo> cu
--- Log closed Sat Sep 24 00:00:02 2011