--- Log opened Thu Sep 22 00:00:50 2011
09:27 < conseo> mcallan: u r awake, i can see it from the mails :-p
11:42 < mcallan> conseo: hey c, i just got back
11:43 < mcallan> i haven't been able to keep my promise, yet
11:43 < mcallan> i have one more post to send, to Liberationtech
11:44 < mcallan> if this argument of individual freedom/bondage is as tight as i think, then it's political dynamite
11:44 < mcallan> we'll be able to make good use of it
12:56 < conseo> ok, i am curious
12:56 < conseo> yet i want to get this first resource implementation going, because my arguments base upon it
12:56 < conseo> mcallan: and it feels kind of pointless to argue about sth. when i at least can show it
12:58 < mcallan> i won't be much longer, almost there.  i wanted to suggest that you use mockups
12:58 < mcallan> you know, svg drawings instead of coding
12:58 < mcallan> save huge amounts of time
12:59 < conseo> sure
12:59 < conseo> but that is not the point
12:59 < mcallan> you could do that while waiting for me to get my ass in gear
13:00 < conseo> sure, but still arguing is pointless, i can do real things with real resources and i would like to show that
13:00 < conseo> but atm. it is in a non-ready state
13:01 < mcallan> oh, you mean i am wasting time arguing...
13:01 < conseo> so i cannot point people do it
13:01 < conseo> no not you
13:01 < mcallan> oh, you want to show running code?
13:01 < conseo> for you this aspect is very important and i see a lot of value in you argument as they lay a theoretical foundation for arguments and theory
13:02 < conseo> but for my theoretical interests i want to merge economy and politics, so i need both
13:02 < conseo> i cannot expect you to share my agenda and the outcome of your arguments is not bad
13:02 < mcallan> sure c, but i'm only talking about the track stack
13:03 < conseo> although i think that we should draft he arguments in votorola itself, so we can stop these walls of text
13:03 < conseo> i simply don't have the time to follow the eternal repitions of each argument
13:03 < mcallan> i see, u mean argue with the stick
13:03 < conseo> yes
13:03 < mcallan> i prefer that too, in terms of efficiency...
13:04 < conseo> at least we two/three (+thomas) could gather some arguments positions in the wiki
13:04 < conseo> this should save us time in the long run and give us more credebility (maybe)
13:04 < mcallan> i'm with you, and i'm not asking for anything else...
13:05 < conseo> ok, i will try to gather some content and polls in the wiki
13:05 < mcallan> i may misunderstand
13:05 < mcallan> we need code, i agree
13:06 < mcallan> isn't that we're talking about, code instead of talk?
13:06 < conseo> yes, but we can already deal with list arguments by drafting our positions and just linking to them
13:06 < mcallan> i am not arguing to convince anyone, however
13:06 < mcallan> it's for me
13:06 < conseo> atm. i have to search the lists to find your arguments and theoretical design and this is far from optimal
13:07 < conseo> sure me too
13:07 < conseo> but i am interested in your arguments and the list threads get on my nervers too often
13:07 < conseo> nerves
13:07 < mcallan> i think i understand
13:08 < mcallan> i know you probably want to post, but the time it takes...
13:08 < mcallan> the code is a higher priority on average, and i'm almost back to it
13:09 < conseo> and then i have to repeat and argue again, you know, this is why votorola itself appealed to me in the beginning. i don't like our (on the lists/web in genereal) culture of discussion very much
13:09 < mcallan> i *need* the theory that comes from that talk
13:09 < conseo> i would like to make an argument once and finegrain it over time, which i can with votorola instead of repeating myself all the time
13:09 < conseo> yes, we need it
13:10 < conseo> but that doesn't mean we cannot write the content in wiki pages
13:10 < conseo> and link to it, does it?
13:10 < mcallan> we can, i do that for my own arguments already - and also on web pages
13:11 < conseo> i am not against the lists, in fact i would like to join electorama and maybe some others as well, but metagovernment is rotating around itself atm. imo
13:11 < conseo> ok, cool
13:11 < mcallan> i am not talking about posting to metagov
13:11 < conseo> ok(?)
13:11 < mcallan> i am posting to academic list, to get answers
13:11 < conseo> which one?
13:11 < mcallan> like i said :-)  Liberationtech
13:12 < conseo> ed is very valuable and i would like to support him on the list, but the discussions are of little value imho
13:12 < conseo> ok
13:12 < mcallan> well, i hear you
13:13 < conseo> people mix all kind of issues just to sound right, but they too often talk to themselves instead of clearly seeing value in collaboration
13:13 < conseo> ok
13:13 < conseo> :-D
13:13 < conseo> after all i don't need you to practice that myself
13:13 < conseo> in fact i can even take your arguments and put in in my articles/positions, so i just wanted to let you know what my current feelings towards discussion are
13:14 < conseo> i have also talked to opensourceecology.org and started to donate a bit, and they have already shown interest in e-dem tools, when i asked them
13:15 < conseo> they seem to see social organisation as crucial to their overall success, besides being able to produce state of the art technology, so i'll try to contact them
13:16 < mcallan> you need the RAC
13:16 < conseo> yes
13:16 < mcallan> i need the RAC
13:16 < conseo> are you around longer? because i need sth. to eat
13:17 < mcallan> well, i am trying to get done posting this, so i can get back to the RAC
13:17 < mcallan> yes, i'm around
13:17 < mcallan> go eat, my friend :-)
13:19 < conseo> ok, thx :-)
13:19 < mcallan> (and if you want to talk about openeco, that's cool - best by skype - tho maybe 2morrow)
13:43 < conseo> ok, tomorrow same time?
13:46 < conseo> i will ask the list about view ideas for the progress bar in the trackstack now, ok?
13:52 < conseo> mcallan: to select an account you would select a position and the sac, right?
13:53 < conseo> (or maybe not, but it is the easiest cut-set
13:56 < mcallan> ok to tomorrow, and list ...
13:57 < mcallan> yes, logically sac + user (actually) = ac (but ac may actually be downstream of that user)
13:59 < mcallan> because ofc, user + poll = position (and poll is already part of sac)
13:59 < mcallan> our RAC has its own algebra, too :-)
14:02 < conseo> yes
14:02 < conseo> btw. i have learned sth. which i find really interesting
14:02 < conseo> in our last discussion
14:02 < conseo> votes and money are incomensurable i guess
14:02 < conseo> if you let it float then money becomes the alienated value it is in our society, but this contradicts a vote you can at any time pull back
14:03 < conseo> so a floating model for the vote tree would bind your votes in an economical circle, not allowing you to easily take it back and create a new position
14:03 < conseo> you can ofc. still vote for the same tree and keep your resources in, while just changing the position a bit, but you lose an essential freedom to fork
14:04 < conseo> this is still drilling my mind and i have difficulties to understand how this problem really relates to a merge between economy and democracy.
14:05 < conseo> if in doubt, focus on users freedom and drop capitalistic economy
14:05 < conseo> pledges are reciprocal, flow is not
14:06 < conseo> (maybe i get it wrong, i am still thinking about it, yet it shows how interesting the stuff is we do, even if it seems to be very technical (practical) it starts to reveal theoretical problems which go imo far beyond what we currently discuss on the list)
14:07 < mcallan> yes (and i don't understand much of what you say yet) but *freedom*
14:07 < conseo> LOL
14:07 < conseo> hehe
14:07 < mcallan> that is what matters in the list discussions
14:07 < conseo> i will try to get it hammered out a bit more in the wiki, but i am still not sure how to deal withit myself
14:08 < mcallan> freedom is the essence of what we do, and i agree it is amazing
14:08 < mcallan> conseo: remember to explain your idea to me tomorrow, when we talk
14:08 < conseo> yes, freedom. but allowing freedom and still be economically pracitcable is what has never worked before. so it is really interesting to compare practical concepts to historical materialism
14:09 < mcallan> (i am currently reading Habermas's 1962 work, and I just past the point where it pivots on Marx and others in mid 1800's
14:10 < mcallan> yes, it's all tied in there)
14:10 < conseo> maybe marx was too short-sighted when it came to proletarian dictatorship (not because the dictatorship contradicts freedom in itself, but because the changes necessary have to happen in profound understanding of freedom focused production
14:10 < conseo> cool
14:17 < conseo> until today nobody could solve the problem of open-source development and economical sustainablility. while the movement is a force in itself and i would even go so far to call it a new force of productivity which succeeds capitalism ultimately, it cannot reproduce its own basis in an opensource-way
14:17 < conseo> it still relies on capitalism to do the economics
14:18 < conseo> mcallan: this is the problem which makes me thinking atm.
14:19 < mcallan> i think i see, yes reproduction is crucial
14:21 < mcallan> but you want to cut capital out of the picture, so this is an attraction for you
14:21 < conseo> i don't want to cut it out, i think it is crucial not to decide for the users. i just want them to have an alternativ
14:21 < conseo> e
14:22 < mcallan> right, i understand. someday (maybe tomorrow) you must explain how freedom is bound up in that choice
14:23 < mcallan> then i (mr. freedom on the brain) will understand :-)
14:23 < mcallan> i am ready to post...
14:26 < conseo> i have posted
14:26 < conseo> to post what?
14:28 < mcallan> free-dom
14:36 < conseo> ok
14:36 < conseo> in liberationtech?
14:37 < conseo> noodles are ready
14:38 < mcallan> yes
14:38 < mcallan> i mean, bon appetite!
14:42 < conseo> thx
14:44 < mcallan> unfort, the list archive is closed: https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/private/liberationtech/2011-September/002109.html
14:45 < mcallan> conseo: i forwarded to you, and will prob. forward to list tomorrow
14:49 < conseo> is the list closed as well? where can i subscribe?
14:50 < mcallan> no, it's open: https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
14:50 < mcallan> you will like it, i think
14:50 < mcallan> (the list)
14:55 < conseo> ok, thx
15:24 < mcallan> conseo: do you get error here too: http://metagovernment.org/pipermail/start_metagovernment.org/
15:26 < conseo> loads forever
15:29 < mcallan> i get "Forbidden"
15:29 < mcallan> i'll mail ed, it's been down a while
15:30 < conseo> error "forbidden"
15:30 < mcallan> ok, same here
15:30 < conseo> Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.
15:30 < conseo> ok
15:31 < mcallan> right, i'll let him know (i ref'd the archive in that post)
15:36 < mcallan> i'm off for the day c, cu tomorrow
16:25 < conseo> gn8
16:32 < conseo> subscribed to liberationtech
--- Log closed Fri Sep 23 00:00:05 2011