--- Log opened Sun Jun 19 00:00:32 2011
07:43 < conseo> mcallan: you are not happy with the xfbot logging functionality, right?
07:44 < conseo> or do you simply want to have a backlog for yourself?
07:44 < conseo> no, you are not happy with it, because you have linked your backlog again
07:45 < conseo> can you formulate a criticism of the bot?
10:58 < mcallan> conseo: part of the problem is that i need to log other channels, and it's nice to have the same logging iface for all of them
11:00 < mcallan> another is the directory format, which is hard to navigate. compare: http://zelea.com/var/cache/irc/_v/
11:00 < mcallan> with: http://zelea.com/var/cache/irc/votorola/
11:01 < mcallan> or better: http://zelea.com/var/cache/irc/metagov/
11:44 < conseo> hmm, i am not happy with the situation
11:45 < conseo> mcallan: why do you need hourwise logs? i find that rather confusing and difficult to navigate
11:46 < conseo> mcallan: you can make the bot join any channel you like
11:47 < conseo> if you find a logging solution where i can match points in time closely (like seconds) in the format, then we can simplify the bot to use that
11:48 < conseo> maybe minute is also ok, but this might become ambigious if two people with similiar topics discuss the same issue and trigger a diff-url
11:49 < conseo> and this http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2011-06-18 has no anchor links to minutes, but rather an internal counter
11:49 < conseo> i don't know why they don't use the time, since this would allow linking from elsewhere easily
11:49 < conseo> it is imo really annoying and stupid
11:51 < mcallan> hey c. i don't have hourly logs. daily
11:53 < mcallan> u will always have this problem, where the log iface already exists.
11:53 < mcallan> channels have their own logs. i'm still impressed by this one: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6
11:56 < mcallan> so yes, there has to be a solution (tho maybe not urgently)
11:57 < mcallan> one solution would be you keep your own log buffer (with detailed timings) and use it to match against the messages in the other buffer (say by line #)
11:57 < mcallan> then you can flush that part of your own logs, because u never need them again
11:57 < mcallan> see what i mean?
11:58 < mcallan> by "other buffer", i meant like this one: http://zelea.com/var/cache/irc/votorola/11-06/19
11:58 < mcallan> or this one: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/text.pl?channel=perl6;date=2011-06-19
12:39 < conseo> ok
12:40 < conseo> hmm, maybe we can make the scraper configurable (at least the regexp for html lines)
12:42 < conseo> matching lines is inaccurate though, but it should be sufficient
12:43 < mcallan> it feels similar to the harverster problem, lots of specialized little agents as glue
12:43 < mcallan> (spec. because there are so many possible logging formats to link to)
12:45 < mcallan> i would leave it though, till it needs a solution
12:46 < mcallan> conseo: is it ok if i continue the 'Interested activists' thread in the metagov list?
12:49 < mcallan> i think we need plans of action (like i said) and they need to be drafted using the tools
12:50 < mcallan> if Ed helps, it'll be a boost
13:19 < mcallan> (no need after all, Matteo's thread is more appropriate)
14:17 < conseo> yes do it
14:17 < conseo> mcallan: everything we can do to get people interested is ok for me
14:18 < conseo> no matter what they are interested in, even if it is not directly related to us, will give us positivie feedback
14:20 < mcallan> i'm thinking we need plans (to get those people), and resources to execute them (manpower)
14:20 < mcallan> i'm thinking we need your resources sooner, rather than later
14:22 < mcallan> the resource needed to get more alpha users isn't money (as Matteo offers), but the pre-alpha users (us+)
14:25 < mcallan> so we can bootstrap it using the tools, even if we don't yet know (or agree) how exactly to go about it
14:34 < mcallan> your resources turn out to be the crucial attractor in the UI
14:35 < mcallan> consensus alone is often insufficient, and sometimes not even relevant
14:38 < mcallan> the accumulation of the needed resource in the UI shows how close we are to action, and there's the attraction
14:39 < mcallan> so we turn that attractor onto the alpha user problem, and bootstrap the practice that way
14:41 < mcallan> (if we ask Mark to drop out, we can probably get ops on #metagov)
15:17 < conseo> mcallan: i am *really* happy that you are as excited about the resource factor as i am
15:17 < conseo> mcallan: i am with you with the plan idea
15:18 < conseo> i think atm. we should stay focused and think a bit further on where we need to go and how long that should take
15:18 < conseo> i'll fetch my laptop tomorrow morning from german customs and assemble it
15:19 < conseo> i hope to be back till the weekend, but i still have three weeks until exams
15:19 < conseo> and four weeks to the last one
15:20 < conseo> besides the harvester work, which is atm. not necessary since we don't have a forum to integrate yet
15:20 < conseo> you might would like to factor some steps out to get me more involved in the code base and to get things done quicker
15:21 < conseo> i am still not an experienced developer, but then if you talk with me about the design a bit, like you did with the harvester, i think i can be a helping hand
15:25 < mcallan> it's the resources you like (i'm happy they fit in so neatly too) so that might be the place to start
15:26 < mcallan> i will float designs ahead of time, and you should be able to pick up any piece of it that interests you
15:26 < conseo> ok, good
15:26 < mcallan> how's studying going?
15:27 < conseo> maths is difficult and the other stuff is not too exciting
15:27 < conseo> i like algorithms and i find it neat to think about hardware, but its pretty abstract and school like stuff, so a bit boring
15:28 < conseo> multidimensional analysis is interesting although it is difficult
15:28 < mcallan> i always like multi-d stuff too
15:29 < mcallan> we did it in biology
15:30 < conseo> it has many interesting modelling possibilities, yet we don't do anything with the computer in maths, so it is concentracted mostly on proving stuff
15:30 < mcallan> it probably gets more interesting later, once the basics are out of the way
15:30 < conseo> i find that a stupid, since you have to understand at least a bit what you are trying to solve to not get a maths fetish
15:31 < conseo> i mean most of this stuff is motivated by modern physics and other natural science, showing some modelling possibilities with the computer from time to time can be a  motivation to learn all this maths and to think about it
15:32 < conseo> but only proving (as necessary it is to understand the structural details) is useless
15:32 < mcallan> true, i don't use hardly any math in software eng
15:33 < conseo> as a mathematician you become a person who willingly does not want to know about the application but always stays formal
15:33 < mcallan> it's only needed in math/physics type apps
15:33 < conseo> yep, i think it can be interesting, but you need time to dive into one of the maths/physics areas and usually there is no need for software. maybe it becomes more interesting with robotics
15:34 < conseo> no need for that in software
15:34 < mcallan> it's just a thing to get over.  you do the work and get the diploma.  if you learn/enjoy anything along the way, it's a bonus!
15:34 < conseo> :-)
15:34 < mcallan> Like the Fogerty song goes, "sometimes i think life is just a rodeo. the trick is to ride, and make to the bell"
15:34 < conseo> right, i know what i am doing it for, that is what keeps me motivated
15:35 < conseo> if i hadn't this e-democracy perspective here, i likely wouldn't do it
15:35 < mcallan> it's good stuff to work on, that's for sure
15:35 < conseo> it lacks reflection and thought about our real problems, that is what got me frustrated when i started my maths/computer science studies 5 years ago
15:36 < mcallan> i know the feeling
15:36 < conseo> with a lot of people i have the feeling that they ignore reality to feel superior by only doing maths and natural science and don't caring about anything else since they have a good job perspective
15:37 < conseo> that is what makes you sympathetic
15:37 < conseo> you know that technology in itself has no meaning
15:38 < conseo> this seems to hard for many natural scientists
15:38 < conseo> too
15:38 < mcallan> yes, it's a different perspective they have. hands off study
15:41 < conseo> well anyhow, back to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differentiable_manifold
--- Log closed Mon Jun 20 00:00:48 2011